Friday, May 11, 2012

Serious Stuff That Needs Immediate Attention

I know you usually expect something lightweight and entertaining when you come here, but today I think we need to discuss a matter of vital importance to the well-being of society. It’s a question that has plagued mankind since the early 1950’s. It won’t be easy to come up with an answer we can all agree upon, but we have to try. If we don’t figure this out, the world we leave behind for our children and grandchildren just plain won’t be worth living in. So, as distasteful as it may be, let’s get to work.

What are your top five all-time favorite TV shows?

In order to go about this task in an orderly fashion, I have formulated a set of rules. To qualify as a top five all-time favorite TV show, a series has to meet the following criteria:

1 – Every time it is listed, you watch it. The only exception is if another of the top five is playing at the same time. In that case, you watch the one higher on the list, but flip to the other during commercial breaks.

(Another good test of how much you like a show is if your spouse says, "Are you insane? You're watching [fill in the blank] again?", and you seriously weigh the merits of slamming him or her over the head with a tire iron because... well, because he or she thinks you might be insane, anyway, so why not?)

2 – Reruns are swell. If you say, "Oh, I’ve seen that one already...", then it’s not a top five show.

3 – You probably know the names of all the actors, even those who only play incidental parts such as waiters and deliverymen.

4 – You have a favorite episode (or two, or seven.)

5 – It may have jumped the shark at some point, but you still found enough worth, in the episodes that followed, to keep you tuning in.

(By the way, I think Jon Hein, who originally came up with "jumping the shark", should be knighted, or at least given a two-for-one at Pizza Hut. Pure genius. Also, just so we're clear, I don't think anybody ever actually "tunes in" anymore, but I am ancient of days and unwilling to change my verbiage.)

6 – You would unashamedly recommend it to someone who has never seen it.

(Of course, your level of shame may differ from mine. I’ve recommended Lancelot Link, Secret Chimp and felt no shame whatsoever.)

7 – You immediately know if bits have been cut out of the reruns.

(It's best not to point this out to others who may be watching the show with you. You'll spend too much time explaining what is missing and, if you're anything like me, by the time you finish the explanation, the show itself will be over and the folks you explained it to will not be impressed beyond thinking you probably have some gentle form of autism.)

8 – You think of favorite scenes and smile – possibly even laugh aloud – if it’s a comedy. If it’s a dramatic show, scenes bear up under scrutiny.

(Is it just me? Or does "scrutiny" sound like a disease of the testicles suffered by British sailors?)

(Wow. That was pretty random. It's been, what, like a week-and-a-half since I last posted anything? You waited that long for a bad joke about balls? Sorry!)

(Enjoy it while you can. It's probably softball and reruns from here on out for the next three months.)

9 – You would probably like to see a reunion show of some sort; one that tells how the characters have fared and what they’ve been up to since the show went off the air.

(If there has been a reunion show already, and it sucked, you know the characters well enough to use your imagination and make up your own alternate reality. Never tell it to anyone, though, unless - as outlined in Rule #1 - you're on trial for bapping your spouse on the head with a tire iron and you've decided to plead insanity.)

10 – You quote from the show, often. Those quotes are sometimes met by a blank stare, but that doesn’t deter you.

11 – It does not have an abundance of “dated” scenes which make you ashamed of your generation.

(I think of this as The Mod Squad Rule. I could have called it the Three’s Company rule. Basically, any show that ever had the main characters wearing dashikis and/or leisure suits, sporting platform heels, showing off big gold chains embedded in copious chest hair, or which featured a white guy with an Afro, is disqualified. Here's a rock-solid fact concerning television: There has never been a show that tried to be hip that actually was. There have been hip shows, for sure - Monty Python comes immediately to mind - but they weren't that way because of any overt attempt at inclusion of what some network idiots thought might appeal to the younger generation.

(I suppose I should make it clear that if the thing you love about a show is the very fact that it is outlandishly dated, then skip rule #11 for that show. For instance, if you like to positively wallow in bell bottoms, bad hairstyles, and polyester clothing, then go ahead and put The Brady Bunch on your list. I won't kick you out of bed over it. Also, if a show consciously made an effort to be over-the-top and campy right from the outset, it can qualify. That's known as The Batman Exemption.)

[Yeah, I know this is from The Brady Bunch Hour, not the original, but Rule 11-a says your favorite cannot spawn a hideous variety show unless you're willing to claim it as your own when people bring it up, which they will.]

12 - It cannot be a show in current production. Why? Because then you can't tell if rule #11 will apply. The show has to have withstood at least some little test of time, and that's why all of the shows that follow will be older than dirt.

Now that we’ve set the ground rules, here are my top five:

1 – Leave It To Beaver

I’m sure some of you think I’ve slipped a gear naming this the best TV show ever, but it was a seriously good bunch of television. The acting was honest, the relationships between the characters realistic, it was always emotionally correct, there was at least one strong laugh in every episode, and it featured both the best TV father AND the best “character you love to hate”, those being, respectively, Ward Cleaver and the unctuously oily two-faced Eddie Haskell.

“Beat it, junior. Go play with your building blocks.”

"Gee, Mrs. Cleaver, that's a lovely dress you're wearing!"

Hell, Eddie Haskell by himself is enough to make any show the best TV show ever. I'd even watch re-runs of old Providence Steamrollers basketball games if Eddie Haskell showed up every so often.

(By the way, here's your daily trivia that might win you a drink in a bar bet: Nat Hickey, of the Providence Steamrollers, was the oldest player in NBA history. He was two days short of his 46th birthday when he played a game for them in 1948. He missed all six of the shots he attempted, and had five personal fouls, so it wasn't a great game, but it was still a game.)

2 – The Dick Van Dyke Show

Strong comedy. Always well-written, and performed by an ensemble of comic actors unmatched in American television history. Nobody came close to Dick Van Dyke, at his peak, for fluid grace while performing physical schtick, and Carl Reiner, as viciously overbearing boss Alan Brady, was almost as much fun as Eddie Haskell telling Beaver to go eat his Maypo.

3 – One Foot In The Grave

Brits will be more familiar with this one than Americans. It was the story of the perpetually put-upon Victor Meldrew, a man given to uttering “I don’t believe it!” when presented with life’s latest indignity. Small detail heaped upon small detail until everything comes crashing down via belly laugh. Truly inspired, and definitely worth seeking out if you’ve never had the pleasure.

4 – The Honeymooners

"One o’ these days, Alice, one o’ these days… Bang! Zoom!"

Blustery blowhard Ralph Kramden, one get-rich-quick scheme after another, aided and abetted by his great pal, sewer worker Ed Norton, and alternately confounded and consoled by his ever-patient wife, Alice.

No other television show that aired for only ONE YEAR has been in reruns continuously for more than 57 years since then. Case closed.

5 – Bilko

The actual title was “The Phil Silvers Show”, but nobody called it that. It was always just “Bilko” to those who loved it. The first television comedy to have as its protagonist an anti-hero, Ernie Bilko was a self-serving, greedy, conniving, egotistical master sergeant in the United States Army. When not defrauding his platoon out of their last dollars by promoting crooked dances and raffles, he would make every attempt to become wealthy and famous via more outlandish schemes such as having the entire camp transferred to California because he had found a map showing that gold was buried on the land where the new base would be located. Phil Silvers was superb as Bilko, full of fast patter and double-talk for his always-befuddled commanding officer, Colonel Hall (Paul Ford), and, like many a hero of olden times, he had an Achilles heel – a conscience, which he was able to keep at bay most of the time, but which prevented him from ever really doing harm (and was the secret to the audience being able to root for such a louse, as he would use his considerable brain power for good purposes once every few episodes.)

OK, so now it's time for you to make your list, and...

Oh, hell, I have to name one more show.

5a – The Lone Ranger

The only non-comedy I chose, it makes the list because... well, just because. I love the simplicity of it. There is nothing at all complicated about this show. It's just good action/adventure, earnestly acted, with a hero so squeaky clean you could erect a statue of him inside a church and most priests wouldn't object. In retrospect, some of the dialogue seems insensitive (lots of calling Natives such things as "redskin", "injun", etc.) but The Lone Ranger never says those things, mostly just the evil guys so it gives you another reason to dislike 'em. The relationship between the principles (Clayton Moore as The Ranger, Jay Silverheels as Tonto) is sincerely friendly, and there are a few instances wherein Tonto is verbally defended by his friend when another white man belittles his ethnicity, something far from common during the late 40's and early 50's time period of filming. The production values - that is to say, the tactile feel, the sets, the costuming, the filming techniques, the cheesy sets - are similar to old Columbia short subjects (Three Stooges, etc.), which is a plus for me, but maybe not for you. Hugh McCollum, who was producer for much of the later Columbia output, also manned these half-hours, so no surprise.

OK, that's that, I promise. Now, why not go and do thou likewise, at your place? Or in the comments here, if you wish. I've certainly given you enough room to argue endlessly by those shows I didn't name as my favorites.

Soon, with more better stuff.


Anonymous said...

My five:

Curb Your Enthusiasm
The Golden Girls
The Honeymooners
The Simpsons

OK, that's just four, but that's all I can come up with off the top of my head.

Jackie said...

Father Knows Best
I Love Lucy
The Beverly Hillbillies
(I liked "My Favorite Martian" too) I have used the expression, "Danger, danger Will Robinson around my 3-year-old grandson, and he asked me what that meant. Try explaining that one! :)) )

Anonymous said...

King Of Queens! (that could easily take all five spots heh heh)
I Love Lucy
Curb Your Enthusiasm
The Andy Griffith Show
Law & Order (dun dun!)

Daryl Edelstein said...

I need more time ... could I take a make up quiz? Why is it when I am asked about favorite music or TV or movie I am at a loss ... I did love Fraser and Cheers .. they may be my only comedy favorites .. I prefer a good meaty drama with angst and soapy/cheesy love/sex ..Castle, Greys Anatomy... back with more better .. eventually ... xo

Ami said...

Green Acres
LA Law

And what's wrong with jokes about balls? I wrote a whole post about my husbands balls just the other day. Something about how he cooked me Chicken Cacciatore and I washed his balls. Labor exchange.

Craig said...

Well, you know how I roll with these 'Top Five' lists. I could pick at least twenty, and still be kicking myself over the ones I forgot to include. . .

Dick Van Dyke is probably right at the top of my list. One of the great TV shows of all time. . .

In terms of shows I loved as a kid:

Andy Griffith
The Beverly Hillbillies (just recently figured out that it was a spoof of 'Grapes of Wrath')
My Three Sons

I'm gonna give a special mention to Get Smart for all the quotes that I've pulled from it - "Missed it by THAT MUCH". . . "Sorry about that, Chief". . . "Would you believe. . .?". . . and the under-rated "Kill the light, Hymie". . . and of course (unforgivable quasi-racial stereotype) - "Not da Craw, DA CRAW!!"

Somehow, I also feel like I've gotta mention Gilligan's Island, just because I memorized the theme song, altho I don't know if it would make my Top Five. . .

And 'F Troop' is under-rated. . .

Any Warner Brothers cartoon (especially those involving the Roadrunner).
Also Beany and Cecil
Rocky and Bullwinkle; when I was in college, we had a dedicated group of guys who would gather in the TV lounge in the dorm every day for Rocky. 'Cuz we finally got the jokes. . .

In our early-married years, Jen and I were dedicated watchers of Hill Street Blues ("Freeze, Dogbreath!")

And our family went through a period where we watched 'Life Goes On' every week. Really good, solid show, altho it started to take itself too seriously in its later years. . .

I wasn't really an original trekkie, but Star Trek: The Next Generation was a VERY good show; much better, and more thoughtful than you might expect. . .

I don't know about including a game show in a list like this, but the original 'Hollywood Squares' - oh, hell, just Paul Lynde in the center square - OK, and Charlie Weaver - could be utterly hilarious. (I remember one time a new contestant named Mark was introduced, and Lynde said, "Sounds like a dog with a harelip - 'Mark, Mark, Mark!'"; I couldn't breathe) (it probably helped that I have a brother named Mark).

And I just have to give an appreciative wave to Jackie for the 'Lost In Space' reference. Also, "It does not compute". . .

Bill Yates said...

Sully, my list is here:

Great post by the way!

lime said...

wow, i'll have to think about this. top of my head i'd say monty python and MASH come to mind. you remind me of the honeymooners and dick van dyke. (and true story, i have a patient with whom i trade trivia facts. he is still struggling to answer my last one about the honeymooners. hehehehe. i'll ask you....what was ed norton's favorite tv show?)

btw, you've been tagged at my place (ducks and runs)

lime said...

of course, i've also spent the morning bugs bunny cartoons on youtube....

Suldog said...

Lime - "Official space helmet on, Captain Video!"

joeh said...

Damn... we must be the same age. In no particular order:
Leave it to Beaver
The Sopranos
You'll Never get Rich
THe Honeymooners
THe Cosby Show
Everyone Loves Raymond
The Wonder Years
Mary Tyler Moore Show
The Jack Benny show

lime said...

aaahhh...i KNEW you'd know. most excellent!

Buck said...

I'd have no favorite shows if I followed the rules to a "t." That said, I can't name any more than two:

The first iteration of "The Bob Newhart Show." Less about Bob, more about Ms. Pleshette. (He swoons)

Craig's "Rocky and Bullwinkle." The ONLY show I've ever purchased on DVD, and I did it coz my grandchildren NEEDED to know these characters.

Wait. Three. "Sesame Street." Hardly ever missed an episode when I worked shift work... the boys and I would watch it together in bed after mids and on the days I worked swings.

That would be it.

Buck said...

On further reflection: I can't believe you left out "Mr. Rogers."

From the Mind of a Madman said...

I may not follow your rules exactly but heres my list....

Celebrity Apprentice
Ice Road Truckers
Celebrity Rehab
Fox News.... I know I know.... Its scripted but still hilarious!

Suldog said...

Some wonderful replies here. I've answered most personally, via e-mail, but a few selected thoughts merit repetition for all, I believe.


Bill Yates has taken the challenge and done similar at his place. He's always worth a read, so why not cut and paste the web address he gave above?


Craig - enjoyed all of those that you named (well, except for "Hill Street" - never really became a fan of that one, but maybe I just didn't watch enough of it, because I wasn't terribly "into" cop dramas at the time.) As a matter of fact, most of those you mention were in my top 25 list that I winnowed down to five for this post.

(It pained me terribly to knock some of them out, but I applied my own rules that I made up and... well, what remained was what remained.)

Especially painful to lose were "F Troop" and "Hillbillies", but I had to admit that to myself that there were some episodes of Jethro and company that I'd be embarrassed to watch with someone else after recommending same, and Agarn & O'Rourke just plain lost out to some others because of the others having been on longer, being of somewhat higher quality, etc.

I hadn't even considered game shows, but if I had, "Concentration", starring Hugh Downs, might have made the list. I loved that show when I was a kid.

I think cartoons would mostly come under a separate "Best Saturday Morning Shows Ever" category, and maybe I'll do that someday and include "Rocky" (and I do realize it was a primetime vehicle at first, but...)


Buck - I almost included "The Bob Newhart Show" just because Suzanne Pleshette occupied some of my more self-intimate moments as a teenager, if you know what I mean (TMI, I know, but I'm sure you understand.)

And now that you said "Sesame Street", I realize I missed my favorite kids show, "Mister Rogers". That's the trouble with these things. As soon as people start giving you their own lists, you find out how bad a job you did on your own.

(And I said that, about "Mister Rogers", BEFORE reading Buck's second reply!)


Joe H mentioned The Sopranos. I utterly and completely missed that one when compiling my list. It might have made it. Great show.


Lastly, The Simpsons was mentioned above. Easily on the list if not for my rule about not being in current production. I'm not sure which of my 5 it would replace, but if it ever actually stops production someday, it will have to be one of them!

Uncle Skip, said...

These first three go back to my childhood, when I had to watch on a neighbor's TV because we didn't have one:
Crusader Rabbit
Time for Beanie
The Cisco Kid
Beyond that, I with Buck on Sesame Street.
Then I take either version of Newhart (yeah, Suzanne Pleshette curled my knickers and Larry, Darryl, and Darryl were almost as funny as Ed Norton).
And for a bonus, The Honeymooners.
Don't even ask me to rank these and bear in mind there are probably others I haven't thought of ...yet

Uncle Skip, said...

It occurred to me that there are a lot of shows today that I avoid like the plague and would even watch Larry Welk (thank you for that Stan Freberg) reruns on PBS in lieu of.

Oh and I forgot The Red Green Show.

Craig said...

Skip! Red Green! I LOVE that show! (Altho, it's still currently in production, isn't it?)

Looking back, I didn't mention any shows from the 70s (I was in college, and didn't watch as much TV as I did before) but if I did, I'd probably mention All in the Family, MASH, and maybe Happy Days. Mork & Mindy really wasn't a very good show, but we would watch it pretty regularly, just to see what Robin Williams would do. . .

The original Saturday Night Live was edgy and brilliant.

And while I'm thinking of sketch-comedy, how about Carol Burnett? Or Laugh-In? Or The Smothers Brothers?

Ed Sullivan filled a unique niche for years and years and years, but folks my age remember three weeks in February '64. To say nothing of the pre-hippie George Carlin. Or that plate-spinning guy, who ultimately gave me my best analogy for what it's like to raise eight children. . .

Michelle H. said...

Mash, although it definitely breaks rule 11 with platform heels and afros on white guys. Klinger was dated alright.

For my other choices:

Star Trek (all series including Deep Space Nine)
Keeping Up Appearances
Law and Order (I'm watching a marathon of it right now)
The Looney Tunes Show

Michelle H. said...

Oh and congrats on another win at M Street!

Anonymous said...

Oh, how can you narrow it down to 5? Definitely Leave it to Beaver and Dick Van Dyke, but so many others. Some I don't see that anyone mentioned were Daniel Boone, Third Rock from the Son, and the Addams Family. I might have to do my own post with my top 20! Oh, I loved Pinky and the Brain, too. Hard for me to admit that good cartoons didn't stop after I grew up.

Anonymous said...

Oops, that would be "Third Rock from the SUN" not "Son", lol!

Bill Yates said...

Thanks Sully. And I like your new category of Vintage Game Shows...the original Jeopardy with Art Fleming, with questions worth $10, $20, $30, $40, and $50...

Skip said...

Craig - my informants tell me Red Green has been out of production for six years. But with 15 years in the can (pun intended), there are plenty of episodes.

I missed a ton of shows from the late 50s and most of the 60s because:
a) there was no TV on school nights (50s)
b) what was available to watch when I was in the Navy was excreable (early 60s)
c) numerous reasons mostly involving time (mid to late 60s)

Craig said...

Skip - just for fun. . .

Stephen Hayes said...

These are the TV programs I've watched the most over the years. Actually, The Twilight Zone is way ahead of all the others; I can repeat the dialogue in most of the episodes. If I'd have included a sixth, it would be Star Trek: The Next Generation--except for the episodes that had to do with Worf, the universes worst warrior.

#1 The Twilight Zone
#2 Seinfeld
#3 Perry Mason
#4 I love Lucy
%5 All in the Family

Jenn Flynn-Shon said...

Okay, I was writing a comment that was about as long as a blog post. So I'm just going to write a blog post tomorrow on why I choose these as my top five:

In no particular order:

Sex and the City
Get Smart / Inspector Gadget (yes the cartoon, yes they're pretty much the same show & that's why)
Golden Girls
and a close backup would be Moonlighting

IT (aka Ivan Toblog) said...

Maude (see Adrienne Barbeau)
...and, gee, nobody's mentioned Dragnet

Jeni said...

The top FIVE? Only Five? My God, Man! Are you insane? Don't answer that question as I think we all know the answer to that one already!
So many shows I have loved over the years -all 55 or so of them of watching TV. Andy Griffith -especially the episode where Barney thinks a farmer who is plowing at night is maybe growing Marijuana! A classmate of mine and I giggled over that line for several days! WKRP in Cincinnati -older daughter and I still quote the line from one show "Tarzan no need rope!" whenever an occasion arises that we see the similarity there to that tag line. MASH -the episode where Harry Morgan plays the senile officer doing a court marshal type thing on Hawkeye and Trapper -favorite scene is when the old guy marches out of the scene, singing and I can't remember the exact line now, but it was hysterical anyway! All In The Family -any show, pick one, it was great! SOAP -I must have a penchant for really off-the-wall humor but I loved that show, idiotic as many scenes were! Cheers -loved virtually any of those many shows too! Seinfeld -The Soup Nazi and the show about gays with the line "Not that there's anything wrong with that." or the "Square to Spare" episode too! See what I mean? Way too many shows I've loved and some of them I still watch just as faithfully whenever I can! (I'm already hooked on the season shows as well as reruns wherever I know they will be on for The Big Bang Theory now too! On a serious side -I'm heavy-duty into reruns of Law and Order and I used to watch reruns whenever I could of Hill Street Blues too! Dramas though -I enjoy but don't usually remember lines from them as a general rule. What does all that say about me now? Probably that I'm as big a fruitcake much of the time as is the author of this blog!

Hilary said...

I can't possibly follow the rules of favourites so I'll just tell you the ones that come to mind which I'd gladly watch in rerun.

The Dick Van Dyke Show (all time favourite)
The Mary Tyler Moore Show
All in the Family
The Andy Griffith Show
WKRP in Cincinnati
The Odd Couple
The Carol Burnett Show
Petticoat Junction
Father Knows Best
December Bride .. I scarcely remember it from its run time but I saw it in reruns about 25 years ago and found it to be a timeless, intelligent and funny show.

I suspect that down the road, Modern Family will make that list, also.

Babs said...

The Carol Burnett Show ...for sure..
Captain Kangaroo...and i don't care about your rules on this one lol, because Mr. Moose was the bomb...or the
Sky King--I wanted to be Penny..I was sure it would happen
Laverne and Shirley---they were funny...bottom line
The Avengers....I was sure I could Karate Chop anyone..while not a hair on my head would move in those slinky tights...with a british accent...

That's just the tip of the iceberg..

Clare Dunn said...

My Top 5:
Dick Van Dyke
I Love Lucy
Sky King

Bonus Selections:
Car 54, Where Are You? (Silly as hell, but I was totally addicted.)
Lost In Space (Too Campy? Oh, well...)
xoxoxo, cd

Shrinky said...

Ah, great post Jim! I have to list mine in no particular order, as I love'em all equally - and some you probably will never have heard of.. and by the way, kindly leave the testicles of our British sailors alone, please (just saying).

1. Fawlty Towers

2. Dad's Army

3. The Sopranos

4. Red Dwarf

5. The Young Ones

Maggie May said...

1) Fawlty Towers
2) One Foot In The Grave
3) Hancock's Half Hour (from the past)
4) Little Britain.

Maggie X

Nuts in May

Shrinky said...

I forgot to add Father Ted - how could I forget to add Father Ted??

flutterby said...

Sadly, I don't have any shows that pass ALL the criteria.

The Cosby Show and/or Fresh Prince of Bel-Air may come close.

As well as my guilty pleasure of a decade or so ago, Nikita.

Carolina said...

Mrs. Brown's Boys (hilarious)
Scrubs (I'm not following all the rules)
Fawlty Towers
Phineas & Ferb (your own fault for bringing them to our attention)

But ask me tomorrow and I'll probably come up with an entirely different list. I'm probably not following any of the rules then. Sorry :-)

Carolina said...

Mrs. Brown's Boys (still hilarious)
Arrested Development
Northern Exposure

See, only minutes later and the list is different already. I could go on like this all day. But I won't (I heard that sigh of relief).

Suldog said...

IT - As regards "Dragnet", great show, but with a split personality. The first incarnation, from the 50's, was grittier. The Harry Morgan episodes were somewhat bizarre. Great TV, but the "drug" shows from the 60's were, to anyone from my neighborhood, one of the prime reasons why we thought the previous generation had no clue what they were talking about concerning drugs. Stuff like that (overblown sensationalistic no-drugs-at-any-cost hype) was probably responsible for as many people becoming drug addicts as anything else from the period. We felt that if they lied so much about marijuana, they were probably lying about other things (which, unfortunately, they often weren't.)

Suldog said...

Thanks, especially, to those from other regions of the world who answered here. I'd love to see some full blog posts from the UK or Netherlands or wherever about this subject. I'm sure it would be very insightful.

i beati said...

30 rock- the Middle - Happy Endings- saturday Night Live - Modern Family - make me laugh always

Uncle Jim said...

Wonderful. Uncle Jim would be proud you included the Lone Ranger.

Lora said...


And I can only come up with three.

And I feel like I bad person now because I've never seen any of the shows you mentioned. Except I think my dad made me watch Leave it to Beaver a few times, but the memory is kinda fuzzy.

I've never even heard of Bilko.

Can we still be friends?

Jenny Woolf said...

I have realised I don't tend to have favourite shows - suppose I don't watch much TV or something. But there are a couple I like. They might not be familiar on your side of the Atlantic, though. They are Fawlty Towers and Father Ted, the comic acting is so good in both of them.